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File: 1217341426865.jpg -(504574 B, 750x1000) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
504574 No.1   [Reply]

As a thinly-veilled excuse for us to post sword porn, we could discuss a topic of high interwebs importance, namely who would win in a fight between a Medieval European knight and a feudal Japanese samurai?

>> No.2  
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163984

First, some questions. For the knight, are we assuming he will be a maile clad Norman with sword and kite shield from the year 1066? An English or French chevalier of 1350 in partial plate with arming sword ready for duel in the champ clos? Will he be an Italian condottieri from 1450 resplendent in full regalia? Or will he be a Teutonic knight of circa 1400 in a head-to-toe suit of articulated Gothic plate-armor and bastard sword?

>> No.3  
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28667

Will the samurai be wearing the older box-like Muromachi armor and armed with a tachi blade? Or will he wear the later close fitting Kamakura period do-maru armor and use the more familiar katana? For that matter, would the samurai be allowed to use both his long katana and his wakizashi short sword together?

>> No.4  
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163478

We might also want to consider the forms of warfare each swordsman was experienced in and focused upon. Knights emphasized mounted shock warfare with couched lances, and off the field a concern for chivalric and judicial duels as well as tournaments of all kinds. The Western way of war for knights was directed more at a traditional battle of annihilation as part of an overall campaign of conquest. Yet, individual challenges, whether to the death or not, were frequent. Knightly arms and armor were the result of a dynamic interaction of Latin, Celtic, and Germanic cultures as well as Turkish and Arabic influences. The environment knights fought under was extensive and diverse, ranging from the cold of Scandinavia to the deserts of the Middle East, from the plains of Western Europe to the deep forest of the East, and the swamps, fields, and mountains in between.

>> No.5  
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On the other hand, the early samurai engaged in a ritualized style of warfare where individual champions might fight separate battlefield duels following established protocols, as opposed to a later mounted archery style of combat amidst pike formations of lesser foot soldiers. Their clan warfare was decidedly feudalistic yet with acquiring and honor and renown also being a goal. Skirmishing was not also uncommon and there were a few large scale military expeditions to Korea and surrounding islands. But most combat occurred in the environment of the home islands.

>> No.6  
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We cannot overlook the role that culture might play in this contest. Samurai warriors existed in a hierarchical and conformist culture that rewarded obedience and loyalty over individuality. Knights existed in a more complex and fluid society that emphasized self-expression with a long tradition of reliance on individual initiative. Both cultures had experience fighting against outsiders and foreigners: the Europeans encountered the Turks, Mongols, Saracens, and others; the Japanese encountered the Koreans, Chinese, Mongols, and others. Thus, in considering the historical record on cross-cultural collisions in different locations, would we want to give the edge to the more socially diverse Europeans on this?

>> No.7  
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On an individual basis then, we must consider what effect might be played by the quality of fatalism within the samurai code of bushido, or rather the resolute acceptance of death that motivated the fiercest samurai. But then, we cannot overlook the quality of piety and faith that could motivate a noble knight to great feats, or of the ideals of chivalry that he might uphold to the death. It's possible a Medieval European knight would have a certain disdain and scorn for his foreign, "pagan" adversary. Of course, the Japanese warrior's well-known attitude of proud invincibility and readiness to die for his lord could equally make him vulnerable to an unfamiliar foe. Contempt for life and contempt for a dangerous, unknown opponent you might underestimate can be a disastrous combination. While courage is important, fighting spirit alone is insufficient.

>> No.8  
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809711

It has been said that while Europeans designed their armor to defeat swords, the Japanese designed their swords to defeat armor. There is a certain truth to this, but it's a simplistic view. The better Japanese armor was constructed of small overlapping lacquered metal scales or plates tied together with silk cords in order to specifically resist the slicing cut of the katana. It allowed good freedom of movement while offering excellent protection. But if it got wet, the silk cords soaked up water and it became terribly heavy. Though the earliest styles of samurai armor were designed with large square plates more as a defense against arrows, the later forms were intended primarily to be used by and against similarly equipped swordsmen and to lessen the tremendous cutting capacity of their swords. It was durable, effective, and provided for ample movement. But how would it hold up to the stabs of a narrowly pointed knightly sword? This is an important question.

>> No.9  
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However - and this is a key point to consider - samurai were adept at disarming their opponents before drawing their blade. Consider a modern scenario in which a Royal Marine is confronted by an assailant armed with a knife in a civilain setting. Clearly, the assailant is going to be disarmed and receive a beating almost effortlessly, despite the superioirity of their weapon. By using an knights's own motion of attack against them, a samurai may well suddenly face a much reduced threat. Certainly, knights were familiar with grappling, but not to the same martial prowess as a samurai.

>> No.10  
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253527

In major battles among each warrior, a suit of armor was typically worn and a sword wielded in one or two-hands. For the knight, the primary weapons had always been the long lance and the sword, and to a lesser degree the polaxe, dagger, and mace. The sword was always the foundational weapon of a Knight's fencing training. For the samurai however, the sword was but one of three major weapons along with the bow and arrow and the yari (thrusting spear). We should consider that, despite their later acquired reputation for swordsmanship, the samurai's primary weapon was, in fact, not the sword. The sword really did not even become a premier weapon of samurai culture and reach its cult status until the mid to late 17th century when the civil warring period ended. It is something of a myth that every individual Japanese samurai was himself an expert swordsman (no more true than every wild West cowboy was an expert gunfighter). After all, the expression so associated with bushido is "the Way of the horse and bow", not "the Way of the sword." Besides, unlike knightly chivalric tales and combat accounts, the majority of single combats between samurai described in feudal Japanese literature took place with daggers not swords.

>> No.11  
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436191

Tl;DR? TO ARMS!

>> No.12  
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TO BATTLE!

>> No.13  
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FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

>> No.14  
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FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

>> No.15  
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>>9

>not to the same martial prowess as a samurai.
>> No.16  

Am... am I allowed to say chink in my armour?

>> No.17  
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>>15
unarmed? c'mon, samurai would have a distinct advantage
>>16
sure, but how are you going to expoilt it when facing a committed foe?

>> No.18  
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>>16

>distinct advantage

Well, think about it this way: Which one of has the real Christian God on his side?

That's what I fucking thought, weeaboo.

>> No.19  

>>16
ohhh ho. Chink, Armour. you ARE funny.

>> No.20  
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>>16

DID SOMEBODY SAY "CHINK IN MY ARMOR"?

'Cause I think I just heard someone say "Chink in my armor"!

>> No.21  
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46387

>>18
"Thou shalt not kill"

>> No.22  

>>21
Oh you're just using a bad translation. The word "murder" should be more appropriate. How many people did God kill, after all?

I don't think it's possible for a Christian to "murder" somebody who doesn't share his beliefs, in that any killing of said heathen would be more akin to slaying an animal than a human.

>> No.23  
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116125

>>22
Awesome, I'd never realised how cool being a Christian was before right naow. Knights are taking the lead.

>> No.24  

>>23

That kinda looks like poo-poo. :-(

>> No.25  
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176227

>>16
Fucking hell, I must be half asleep... very punny, keep it up.

>> No.26  
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68626

>>24
That's because it is poo poo.

>> No.27  

>>26

Why did you post poo-poo?

>> No.28  
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77458

>>27
Because I couldn't find this picture at the time.

>> No.29  
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759657

The Medieval style of sword and shield fighting is distinctly different from the two-hand grip and quick full-arm slashing cuts of Kenjutsu. Medieval short swords are properly wielded with more of a throw of the arm and a twist of the hips while making passing steps forward or back. Strikes are thrown from behind the shield while it simultaneously guards, feints, deflects, or presses. A sword and shield is a great asset over a single sword alone. Fighting with sword and shield offers a well-rounded and strong defense that safely permits a wide range of both direct and combination attacks.

>> No.30  
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42451

As a sword, the Japanese katana is unmatched in its sharpness and cutting power. Furthermore, it is particularly good at cutting against metal (–but no, it only cuts through other swords in movies and video games!). However, Medieval plate armor is well known for its resistance to cutting, and cutting at a moving target hidden by a shield or a greatsword is not easy. While the edge of a katana is very strong with a sharp cutting bevel, it is a thick wedge shape and still has to move aside material as it cuts. Though this is devastating on a draw slice against flesh and bone, it is much less effective against armors. Realizing this, several styles of Japanese swordsmanship devised specific techniques not to cut at armor, but to stab and thrust at the gaps and joints of it just as the Europeans did against their own plate armor. The primary technique for fighting nearly any kind of armor with most any kind of sword is not to cut but to thrust at the gaps and joints.



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