Thread #3059

pew pew pew

One of the very few pieces of near-good-sense I have seen on this board in years. The idea that either Russia's interests or evne the interests of the Russian-speaking secessionists in Eastern and Central UKraine could in any way be served by an action like this is completely absurd - and yet this is the idea that is already flying around the world. The Ukraine conflict has already seen many instances of murder followed by systematic disinformation as to the real perpetrators of the murder - and this much less from the side of the "state-controlled" Russian media than from the side of liberal, reputable Western press organs like The Guardian. It was highly instructive how the information given by the Estonian Foreign Minister a few months ago - namely that the

>>3061
i'm glad you agree, Alex, but you're still an ashole

>>3061
None of this meand Russia had the right to annex a third of Ukraine...

>>3061
snipers on Maidan Square had actually been picking off both Yanukovych's opponents AND HIS SUPPORTERS and were therefore just as likely to have been acting on orders from the coalition of Kiev putschists (a much larger proportion of whom are Nazis and Fascists than is ever mentioned in the West) as from Yanukovitch himself - elicited little more than a "Gosh! Really?" from EU official Catherine Ashton and promptly sank without further mention in the Western liberal press's reporting of events in the Ukraine.

>>3059 (OP)
more likely, rebels mistook plane, made accident, shit happens

>>3067
After the new video showing rebels immediately and openly talking to Russia and Russia smoothly working to cover up evidence I agree with you.

>>3068
I'd be interested in seeing this video that you believe "shows" Russia smoothly working to cover up evidence, as you put it. They couldn't be working very fucking "smoothly" to cover up the evidence IF SOMEONE WAS VIDEOING THEM DOING IT, now could they? And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Russians, under their current, notoriously KGB-trained President, have a little experience and skill in such matters?
The scenario whereby Russiian-speaking secessionists in Eastern Ukraine shot down the plane mistaking it for a troop-carrier, or simply due to over-zealousness in enforcing the policy of not allowing foreign aircraft - "foreign" meaning Kiev-sent or those sent by any other nation - to enter their airspace, is indeed prima facie the most plausible one. The idea that the shooting-down of the plane was a deliberate act orchestrated by Moscow, or a deliberate act orchestrated by Kiev and its EU/US backers, seem at first sight as implausible as one another. Moscow can do little to alter the fact that large portions of the population of Eastern and Central Ukraine would rather be part of the Russian Federation than part of Timochenko's and other Russiian-hating oligarchs illegal putsch-created Ukraine and Putin has done his best to moderate and distance himself from Eastern Ukrainian secessionist demands except in such cases as the Crimea, where pro-Russian sentiment was so overwhelming that to refuse annexation would have been absurd. This kind of atrocity is exactly the sort of crazy excess by pro-Russian secessionist forces that Putin would have done everything in his power to stop.
The second, prima facie equally implausible scenario, however - namely that the order for the shooting-down did indeed come from a capital city with a firmly-constituted government; not from Moscow, however, but from Kiev (maybe even from Brussels or from Washington) - is maybe not so implausible after all, in light of all the incredible murderous machinations and relentless

>>3069
disinformation that have already marked the Ukrainiian putsch and its secessionist aftermath. Putin's statement on the matter remains diplomatically ambiguous: "The state responsible for ths tragedy is the state over whose territory it occurred". Difficult to know how much he is claiming there: Is he saying that Kiev is responsible for these deaths because it is the Kiev government who have turned Eastern Ukraine into a war zone? Or is he implicitly going so far as to say that the rocket that shot the plane down was indeed fired by Kiev?
The latter possibility is really not so laughably improbable. In the early months of this year Western European newspapers were overflowing with outraged editorials deploring Yanukovich's use of snipers against the pro-EU demonstrators assembled on the Maidan Square in Kiev. By the spring, reliable information was available - not that anyone wanted to avail themselves of it - that the snipers on the Maidan had been killing Yanukovich's people as well:

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.de/2014/03/intercepted-phone-call-between-estonian.html


These "Russian-backed murders" of January and February, then, were very far from being what they seemed. Just because a "0" has been added to the figures of the dead this week, should we put any more trust in the stupid knee-jerk judgment: "It was the Russians"?

I like how you repeat the claim about the snipers to imply the two situations are related. I also like how you twist "the rebels did it" into "it was done by Moscow, and deliberately".

This was a royal fuckup done by seperatists with the full backing and support of Putin. Not to say downing a passenger jet was intentional but firing that missile was, and the negligence

>>3073
that led to it being fired at a passenger jet is criminal.

>>3074
or not (and I personally think it's ridiculous to call it an act of terrorism) the civiliabn plane was brought down deliberately, bringing it down was a

>>3075
criminal act. The blood of 300 people and the lives of millions of future aids victims are on Putins hands.